Daniel says:

I was going to forward a mini project I have been working on, but your inbox was reportedly full, Ike.

Ike says:

You can send it now

Daniel says:

Ike, look at Revelations 20:14 with me please

Ike says:

ok

Ike says:

One second

Ike says:

Let me get my bible

Daniel says:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

Ike says:

ok Dan

Daniel says:

I have been pondering on the latter portion of that verse Ike; trying to relate it to other parts of scripture.

Daniel says:

“…this is the second death?”

Daniel says:

Why did not the bible talk about the final death instead?

Ike says:

Hmm…

Daniel says:

Why the first resurrection, second resurrection; or first death and second death?

Daniel says:

I will tell you what I have begun to sense the Lord wanted me to see Ike. Look at Leviticus 26

Ike. Look at Leviticus 26

Daniel says:

Read verses 14 through 29 please

Daniel says:

It is a very long text I would think for this conversation, but let’s try

Daniel says:

Sorry, I lost my connection and had to reconnect

Ike says:

Dan, I just read it

Ike says:

I have not seen this b/4

Ike says:

And the Lord is serious about His commandments you know

Daniel says:

He sure is. What I see is the same thing He said in another way while He was still on earth

Ike says:

It sounds like what He is going to do to them during that Great Tribulation

Daniel says:

Was it Lev. 26 that you just read?

Ike says:

Yes

Daniel says:

ok

Ike says:

wow!

Ike says:

Heaven as Iron, Earth as Brass…

Daniel says:

No. But if your brother offends you and ask for forgiveness, 70 times 7 forgive him

Daniel says:

The Lord was saying in Lev. 26, I shall abundantly pardon

Daniel says:

He was saying, if you sin against me, and I warn you, and you turn away from your sin, I will forgive you

Daniel says:

But if you reject my warning, I will multiply your pains 7-times

Daniel says:

And I will continue the multiplicative effect as long as it takes to get your attention

Daniel says:

But why would the Lord do these things?

Daniel says:

Please go with me to Hosea 2

Daniel says:

Hosea 2:5-14

Ike says:

Hold on let me read it

Daniel says:

Find the phrase “their mother” in verse 5, talking about the one that brought forth the child – Adam

Daniel says:

He went whoring with other gods whom he did not originally know

Daniel says:

He sold out to Satan, Romans 7:14

Ike says:

ok

Daniel says:

Did you also see what I saw in verse 14 of Hosea 2?

Daniel says:

“I will allure her…” meaning, the generations of men. See also Acts 17:24-27

Daniel says:

It sounds to me like a lover who is not willing to give up on his spouse … because His mercy endures forever. “For God so loved the world…”

Ike says:

I will allure her…

Daniel says:

Yap

Daniel says:

That sounds like what Jesus meant to tell them in Mk.10:2-12 about divorce

Daniel says:

God was saying in Hosea 2, because I am not ready to let you go, I will do whatever it takes to reconcile you to myself

Ike says:

The plea of God to the backslider

Daniel says:

Yap. And several verses before this, as you would notice, God was talking about punishments for this harlot of a wife. But the topic suddenly changed (seemingly) in vs. 14 to show that what God was really doing was looking for reconciliation. He does so by loving her, nonetheless.

Ike says:

Does He do this for Israel alone or for all believers today?

Daniel says:

That is one of my points in this discussion Ike

Ike says:

Oh sorry

Daniel says:

But we will get there shortly

Daniel says:

So in Lev. 26, God forewarns of His instruments for correcting offenders of the divine nature, and the phases that may apply if necessary. Which things were a shadow of the things to come, Paul wrote in Col. 2:17

Daniel says:

These tools, He said, will be applied as long as it takes to correct, heal, and reconcile offenders to Himself. For “I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore, mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me” said He, (Isaiah 63:5)

Ike says:

Will he give up at anytime?

Daniel says:

If you look at the phases of punishments pronounced, you will notice only a progression, and not a termination

Ike says:

True

Ike says:

Is there a point that he lets the man alone?

Ike says:

Or the harlot alone?

Ike says:

Or the backslider alone?

Daniel says:

In fact, the last portion of Lev. 26 seems like the very point in time when humans lose every sense of good judgment (they become reprobates); men doing what is not convenient with themselves

Daniel says:

They begin to kill and eat even the flesh of their own sons. That is the height of confusion without God

Daniel says:

Your question is really what David asked, “What is man, that thou art mindful of him?” Which is another point of this discussion. God is saying I cannot let go of man because I love him so much. He belongs to me – he is a part of me. He is only bruised, but I can heal him. What a love so deep!

Daniel says:

And Isaiah spoke by the Lord concerning the harlot saying, “Thy first father (Adam) hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me”, (Isaiah 43:27). But from the bowel of His compassion, God invokes mercy in Isaiah 57:16-18 and said, “For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.” Wherefore declared the Lord in verse 18, “I have seen his ways, and will heal him…”

Daniel says:

I did not perceive an end in the sequence of judgment Ike

Daniel says:

Rather what I hear is that God will do it as long as it takes to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself. It did strike me once though, the possibility of a jubilee. I am looking to verify it from scriptures

Daniel says:

All the same, see Colossians 1:20: “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself; by him I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven”

Daniel says:

I find another eye opener in this verse Ike

Daniel says:

“…Whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven”

Ike says:

Explain that please

Ike says:

…things in heaven?

Ike says:

What is there in heaven to be reconciled?

Daniel says:

You took it from me Ike…

Daniel says:

That is my question

Daniel says:

What are those things in heaven that are in disagreement with God and needs to be reconciled to Him?

Ike says:

Maybe the saints that died b/4 Christ

Ike says:

“Seeing they could not be made perfect without us” Heb. 11:40

Daniel says:

But those are already in agreement with Him, for they obtained the righteousness of God through faith – Abraham.

Daniel says:

…and were accounted as righteous

Daniel says:

So that Enoch “was not, for he was taken

Daniel says:

So that Enoch “was not, for he was taken…” Gen. 5:24

Daniel says:

And the scripture talks about graves that opened up after the resurrection of Christ, and saints that were resurrected (Matt. 27:52,53)

Daniel says:

But… what righteousness?

Daniel says:

…the righteousness of God that is only in Christ of course.

Ike says:

It is also talking about the blood in that verse

Daniel says:

For we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus

Daniel says:

So, how is it that these giants of faith were accounted as righteous, being that they were born at the time without Christ (as in the flesh), by whom all are made righteous?

Daniel says:

I found the answer in Rev. 13:8; He is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”

Daniel says:

On Him (Christ) is the eternal appointment (See Ephesians 3:10,11) to reconcile all things to God

Daniel says:

“…according to the eternal purpose (appointment) which he purposed in Christ our Lord…” Notice that the appointment is eternal and valid from the foundation of the world. Alleluia!

Daniel says:

Let us get to the main gist of the day Ike, having built the foundation we need to delve into it

Ike says:

Dan do you remember the scripture that says that even the angels are not clean in His sight and He charges them with Folly?

Daniel says:

Yes, I do. Job 4:18; 15:15. But I understand these scriptures to mean that there is only one that is righteous; that is God, and to whomsoever he sanctifies through the blood of Christ

Ike says:

Look at it this way. Did Lucifer and Adam’s transgression taint the Angels?

Daniel says:

The third part that were tainted were cast out of God’s presence into outer darkness actually

Daniel says:

Insofar as the angels are serving before God daily, they are, without contradictions qualified (sanctified) by Him

Daniel says:

“…and without holiness no man can see God”

Ike says:

ok continue…

Daniel says:

My point and question is: Does ‘hell fire’ actually mean a burning furnace forever?

Daniel says:

I think a little differently and from scriptures too

Daniel says:

Please turn with me to Deuteronomy 4:20

Daniel says:

“But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people…”

Daniel says:

In context of other scriptures, I have seen over and over again, the bible referring to a state of torment, disease, and death as ‘hell’ or ‘death’

Daniel says:

While I do not deny the possibility of some kind of burning flame in the judgment process, I am careful to ascribe that to only the parts it does apply. I believe that the lake of fire (or the second death) is just another phase of the punishments spelt out for disobedience in Lev. 26:14-29

Daniel says:

I believe it is that 7-times multiplication of pain (Matt. 12:43-45) for men who will remain stiff-necked even after God have given several warnings to them to repent and turn away from their sins. Adam’s disobedience was the beginning of transgression for mankind, and so we are today in the first phase of the torment of sin: lessened only somewhat for believers who would dare exploit the knowledge of the power of the blood of Jesus

Daniel says:

Hear now the point of “the second death:”

Daniel says:

Death in context of Adam’s transgression, and as seen from several scriptures, is the state of sinfulness or severance of the soul from the holy God (Isaiah 57:17; 59:2, Matt. 8:22). For “…in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17)

Daniel says:

The scripture in Rev. 20:14 would simply talk about the final death, except that it must agree with Lev. 26 (the shadow), and not to infer an end of the reconciliation process

Daniel says:

There is therefore a progression. And, just as God has power to put back life in the parts for the first resurrection, He has power also to put back life in the parts that should be condemned in the second or even the ‘third death’ for judgment. God is eternal and Almighty!

Daniel says:

And nothing just vanishes, nor can God just vanish, for all things consist of Him. Things rather do change from one form to another, as God enables them. Men becoming spirits at death; water turning into ice or steam, depending on the process it is subjected; and seeds growing into fruit bearing trees. Hydropower converts to electrical energy; and the Word is made flesh etc. This essentially is the law of conservation of matter in science, as proposed by the French Chemist Antoine Lavoisier in 1785. It states that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but can change from one form to another

Daniel says:

As Lev. 26 points out, God will continue that progression as long as it takes to “reconcile all things to Himself”

Daniel says:

Now, we have already seen that the price of sin paid for at the cross is an eternal appointment on Christ. This is why Abraham and others could receive God’s righteousness, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, which they received even before Christ was manifest in the flesh

Ike says:

Dan this is good

Ike says:

The Bible truly is deep

Daniel says:

So, you are beginning to see my point?

Daniel says:

These are for the most part the point of my mini project, which I forwarded to you. It is ongoing

Daniel says:

The bible is actually deeper than you and I, or any man can imagine

Ike says:

And deep calleth unto deep

Ike says:

It must be studied and chewed upon

Daniel says:

Yap!

Ike says:

Before it yields its precious juice to the soul of the seeker

Daniel says:

All we need do is ask for more grace; that the eyes of our understanding be enlightened when we read

Daniel says:                                     

Wherefore He said, “seek, and ye will find”

Daniel says:

Did you take a look at my article yet Ike?

Ike says:

One second

Ike says:

Dan, the second and third attachments were 0 bytes

Ike says:

Only the first one was OK

Daniel says:

By the “first one”, did you mean the article itself in Word format?

Ike says:

Yes

Ike says:

But the other two came through as blank

Daniel says:

That’s ok; I can resend the rest in plain formats

Daniel says:

I just forwarded the others in Word format Ike

Daniel says:

See if you have it there now

Ike says:

Yes, I have read them

Ike says:

Interesting!

Daniel says:

The thoughts are still under development. It may turn into some kind of article, who knows

Daniel says:

Or may be beyond an article…we would see

Ike says:

What book are you reading now?

Daniel says:

You mean of the bible?

Ike says:

Actually, I meant non-bible reading but holy reading

Daniel says:

Actually, none at this time

Daniel says:

I am reading career-building books only, as I get myself ready for interviews that might come up

Ike says:

ok

Ike says:

How is the job search coming along?

Daniel says:

My brother, I don’t have much to answer for that…

Daniel says:

I am just waiting on Him as directed. Me I no get power o… [slang]

Ike says:

The Lord is thy Portion

Daniel says:

Na Lucifer them wey say them go be God [this is slang please]

Daniel says:

Me I go be servant and I go dey content by His grace… [slang again]

Ike says:

The Lord is with thee and He shall prosper thee in Jesus Name

Daniel says:

Thanks Bros

Daniel says:

And as far as I understand the story yet, I no too blame am sha. It may be because he never had opportunity to learn obedience like me

Daniel says:

I am learning so much in this flesh; how I should never be like him when I get to heaven. I am learning by the things I suffer

Daniel says:

I am sure after here, never ever to dream to say, “…I will be like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:14). And I think this is the real reason we are here Bros: to learn the arts of righteousness

Daniel says:

The pains are already too much…

Ike says:

You mean Lucifer never suffered?

Daniel says:

That is what I should think… and ere he decided to exalt himself as God. He didn’t seem to see any kind of suffering, or did he?

Ike says:

He was not given the opportunity to suffer, or He never took the opportunity presented. In saying he suffered not, thou posit that his fall was not entirely his responsibility

Daniel says:

No, but that he had a freewill to exercise

Ike says:

If suffering fits us for obedience, and there was no opportunity to suffer…?

Ike says:

I think the Son of God learnt obedience by what He suffered. Sayest thou then that suffering is the tool for teaching obedience?

Daniel says:

Yes, and only for those that would seem to try His guts. That is exactly my point and what I also hear over and over again from scriptures.

Daniel says:

For “…in their affliction they will seek me early.” Also, the Apostle Paul talks about a form of disciplinary measure when he wrote: “Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme” (I Tim. 1:20). The worlds mimic this system by way of prisons for rehabilitating offenders of the law. In simple terms, therefore, is to say that living in sinful flesh is like being consigned to a rehab center. We are in a rehabilitation process on earth Ike. That is why the scripture describes sin as a state of captivity or bondage

Daniel says:

What I am saying then, is that just like Adam and his race, Satan probably would have thought otherwise had he gone through the experience of living in sinful flesh and seeing the torture of sin like we have all been subjected in hope. But just like Adam, he blew it, and there is no excuse for sin

Ike says:

“He that hath suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin”

Daniel says:

There you are…Bros.  And David said it even more plainly; for “Before I was afflicted, I went astray: but now have I kept thy word … It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy status” (Psalms 119:67,70)

Ike says:

Now, what is suffering?

Ike says:

Very important Dan

Ike says:

Very important to understand what suffering is, so we can differentiate that which is of God and that which is not

Daniel says:

Let’s reflect on that as well, God helping us…

Ike says:

Have you heard the story of the man?

Ike says:

Who killed His Father and Mother and pleaded for forgiveness after he was convicted, on the grounds that he was an Orphan!

Daniel says:

First of all, I like to say that suffering is a state of affliction, which result from induced pain

Ike says:

So pain produces suffering

Daniel says:

And the perpetrator is really immaterial by definition; it amount to same thing – affliction

Ike says:

Dan, I think it does

Daniel says:

But we can then separate between what is God’s and what are others.

Ike says:

Oh!

Ike says:

We must know the things that belong to our peace

Ike says:

Ought not this woman being a daughter of Abraham be loosed from her affliction lo these eighteen years?

Daniel says:

If you read my article, my point was to show that both God and man according to Gen 3:22 has the knowledge to use judgment.

Daniel says:

But that only God possess the means to do so and still retain His righteousness

Daniel says:

Man without the love aspect fails in this regard

Daniel says:

And love is God Himself

Daniel says:

Because man sinned and fell short of the love aspect, he applies judgment ineffectively

Ike says:

You left out the Devil in the equation, why?

Daniel says:

No, I didn’t leave out the Devil at all

daniel says:

Look at the last paragraph of the article

daniel says:

I used the personification ‘it’ or ‘its’ to show every other thing. Every other thing outside of God

Ike says:

Ok

Ike says:

wow Dan!

Ike says:

This makes me want to go study

Ike says:

I know so little

Ike says:

Must go study

daniel says:

And He will surely fill you up for longing after His righteousness, that is the promise, and His word cannot lie

Ike says:

Amen

Ike says:

Prosper in His will…

daniel says:

I am ever desiring to be filled too

daniel says:

That is why I can’t leave off studying…

daniel says:

And the Comforter; He is the Spirit of Truth, and will lead you into all truth. For “they that seek the Lord understand all things” (Proverbs 28:5). Halleluiah!!

 daniel says:

And the Comforter; He is the Spirit of Truth, and will lead you into all truth. For “they that seek the Lord understand all things” (Proverbs 28:5). Halleluiah!!

 

Addendum: 12/21/02

I was reading from I Corinthians 15 last night, and the Lord helped me to see what I believe nails home the points of the above conversation. Coupled with my dealings in the spirit while attempting to respond to brother Folusho’s email. I am fully persuaded on my convictions on the subject. And so I read: “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (I Corinthians 15:26).

Interesting, isn’t it? The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death! Which completely dissolves my original puzzle at the beginning of the chat with brother Ike when I asked, “Why did not the bible talk about the final death instead?” The answer is made so clear here. Our lead text Revelations 20:14, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death,” is truly so because it could only be the second death, and not the last or final death, as seen from I Corinthian 15:26. The last enemy to be destroyed therefore is death; for death itself should cease, altogether. Halleluiah!!